Raible Designs

Should I buy a PowerBook or a PC?

I received the following e-mail from Jason Boutwell a couple of days ago (published here with his permission).

I'm in the market for a new development laptop, either a P4 or a G4. I see from some of your older blog posts that you went through the same thing last year. First you went with a P4, then ended up with a PowerBook, so you've done both.

Since we seem to have similar professional interests (jobs where you BYOL, developing J2EE apps with tools like Hibernate, Struts, XDoclet, IDEA, etc.), you seem an ideal person to ask.

It's as simple as this: you can't beat the form-factor of the PowerBook. The fact that it's so small and light really make it a killer laptop. iPhoto, iMovie and iTunes are all killer apps and make digital photography and video so much easer. However, as a development environment - it sucks. It's sooooo much slower that my Windows XP desktop (that only cost $800).

My perspective of the speed difference might not be fair though - desktops (most likely) will always be faster than laptops. However, to run "ant deploy" for AppFuse takes 23 seconds on my 2.6 GHz CPU / 1.5 GB RAM desktop and 36 seconds on the PowerBook (1.33 GHz CPU / 1 GB RAM). It is difficult for me to develop on the Mac after developing on my PC for awhile, it's just so much slower. That being said, I don't think I'd be happy with a PC laptop - they're too ugly and bulky (for the 17" models) and don't offer the slick digital hub integration that the Mac does.

Don't expect the PowerBook to be a desktop replacement. And if you've never used a Mac, prepare to be frustrated. I've been a Windows user for 10+ years and getting used to the way a Mac works is not easy. It's been most frustrating for me because I can navigate around and do stuff on Windows really fast - it's almost like second nature. On the Mac, I have to think about how to do stuff. I think that Mac or Linux users migrating to Windows would feel the same frustration.

Above all else, you need to experience a Mac first hand. Go to your local Apple Store and play around with one. Download your favorite IDE and checkout an open source project from SourceForge. Download and install Ant and try compiling the project. You're gonna love the feel of the Mac, but you might find it's a bit slower than you're used to.

The one problem with not buying a PowerBook is that you'll always long for one. ;-) Would I buy a PowerBook again? Definitely. Would I give up my Windows desktop for a Mac desktop? No. Why should I give up all my years of becoming an efficient Windows user to be a slow-ass frustrated Mac user - it just doesn't make sense.

Posted in Mac OS X at Jan 10 2004, 05:58:17 PM MST 23 Comments

Comments:

Another thing you might consider is a Sony Super-slim vaio. They are quite sexxy and will have the cpu power that you are probably going to be looking for.

IHMO, if you can't/don't want a Powerbook, the Vaio is really your next option. I personally had an older one, 500mHz 128MB of ram, 12GB HD and I loved it. It really was a great system for Redhat 7,8,9 and Mandrake. Complete plug-and-play.

Currently I'm using a Dell 8500 with the Ultrawide screen. I don't worry about the weight much because I love the screen and the Nvidia 64mb 3d accelerator. I know there is the Dell 8600 with a 128MB Nvidia chip, but I just got this one 6 months ago... It's a 2.4gHz Pentium M CPU so you have to finagle the OS to flip into the 2.4 mode or slip it into the docking station. Otherwise it stays in the 1.2 mode. It runs my Java dev environment just fine.

If money and weight were a null thought, I would whole heartedly recommend that you get the AlienWare laptop, Area51-m Extreme. http://www.alienware.com What a beast!

Toshibe also makes super-slim ultra-light laptops, but I don't like them as much as the Sony Vaios.

Posted by mnickel on January 11, 2004 at 01:58 AM MST #

The VAIO are really excellent laptops, they have the nicest screen on a laptop that I have seen. I am using the 16.1 UXGA model and I think this laptop is awesome, it works great for J2EE developement. I had a dell before that gave me so much problems. I would never buy a Dell machine again. Even though the Dell was similar to the VAIO spec wise, it was much slower mainly because the harddisk was so terrible and had a slow access time and was very noisy. I ended up selling my dell on ebay and getting The sony vaio GRT 290Z (3Ghz, 1.5 GB, 60 GB).

Posted by Unknown on January 11, 2004 at 03:50 AM MST #

Beware the Vaio. I've know several people who have bought them; all are frustrated ex-Vaio users now. One fellow I know went through 3 of them before he got one that worked more than 3 months. The Vaio looks great, but my Dells just haven't failed me. Yet.

Posted by Chris Reeves on January 11, 2004 at 06:09 AM MST #

And Jason, if you get back to read this: I call dibs on your old laptop. I need a "beater" machine to replace my wife's computer. Looks like I lost your e-mail address in a machine transfer...

Posted by Chris Reeves on January 11, 2004 at 06:15 AM MST #

Chirs, I have the opposite experience, my Dell Inspiron 8200 had to have the hard disk replaced twice and the screen replaced once. Even thought they came to my house to fix it, Dell's customer service is becoming so terrible, you can't imagine what i had to go through to get customer service convinced that my screen is defective. I later replaced it with the inspiron 8500 only to have memory and motherboard problems.

Posted by Unknown on January 11, 2004 at 07:21 AM MST #

Anonymous, that's a shame - I hate to hear of that experience with products from any vendor. I wonder if you get better support if you buy Dell products through their Small Business channel.

Posted by Chris Reeves on January 11, 2004 at 04:45 PM MST #

Whats wrong with the G5 desktop. It's plenty fast, easily comparable with latest AMD/Intel chips. What annoys me is the fact that mainstream mags are reviewing/comparing the G5 running unoptimised software. Even now the gcc 3.3 compiler won't be a match for the up and coming IBM PowerPC compiler (which as I understand will be added to the Xcode environment). Bottom line is wait 6 to 12 months - and then sit back and watch Intel/AMD get creamed. 3Gig G5s this summer. Much better and more optimised software for G5 processors. (take Lightwave's development move to Xcode as an example). Intel IDE's are considerable more mature and highly optimised for x86 architecture (20+ years of legacy for the x86). Games on the Mac always appear slower than the PCs because Open GL will always be slower than DirectX and to boot you only have a handful of programmers converting the code as opposed to whole teams developing and streamlining PC games. What do you think?

Posted by Andrew Sheridan on January 11, 2004 at 08:14 PM MST #

> Why should I give up all my years of becoming an efficient Windows user to be a slow-ass > frustrated Mac user - it just doesn't make sense. Ah, another Windows luser. I can smell them a mile away.

Posted by david on January 11, 2004 at 08:20 PM MST #

Seems kinda strange to compare a laptop to a desktop, much less a 1.33-GHz laptop to a 2.6-GHz desktop. Are you surprised the desktop is faster? How about comparing a G5 desktop to a P4 desktop? And your comment: "I can navigate around and do stuff on Windows really fast. On the Mac, I have to think about how to do stuff." What's your point? That you've learned how to use Windows really well, but are a novice in using OS X? I can say the same thing in reverse. My most frustrating computer experiences have ALWAYS happened when I've tried to do something in Windows that is butt-ass simple in OS X. It's illogical to use your lack of expertise as a criticism of OS X. You merely point out your own weakness, not the Mac operating system's.

Posted by Rod Rees on January 11, 2004 at 08:33 PM MST #

I went to a PowerBook a few years ago. It took about a week before everything became second nature. I do recommend a two or three button mouse - no big deal - plug one in and it just works. There are several ways you can look at the desktop - I prefer the NeXTlike browser view, but your mileage may vary. It is now very difficult for me to go back to Windows - I just get much more done with OS X. Two months ago I bought a dual G5 ... amazing machine and highly recommended.

Posted by steve on January 11, 2004 at 11:55 PM MST #

I agree with Rod that it seems strange what this article is arguing. Actually, I believe these arguments are completely worthless. Most laptops will beat desktops. If "the speed difference might not be fair" btw desktops and laptops, then why complain? That's the way it is between any laptop and any desktop. So this whole speed point is worthless to anyone. It's just a stupid complaint, and irrelevant to the Mac v. PC issue. As for the OS issue, if you spent a few days with OSX, you will be fine. It is very easy to get used to it. Get a G5, and I guarantee you will be an efficient, highly productive, and very happy Mac user forever. I am.

Posted by Chris on January 12, 2004 at 12:33 AM MST #

Whoa there. No need for a Windows/OS X or desktop/laptop debate. A bit of clarification: I'm a Linux user who only runs Windows for applications that require it, I am much more comfortable in a Unix environment. I'm also in the market for a laptop, not a desktop. I've been developing on PC laptops for a long time, and I'm intrigued by OS X and its Unix underpinnings. That, and of course Macs have it all over PC's in form factor and usability. But what about under the hood? The main question for me is, does the Powerbook have the juice to handle a Java IDE like Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA, running Ant builds and debugging sessions, and possibly a servlet container alongside, together with the usual browsers, email and IM. I'm confident that these new $2000+ 2.5-3GHz PC notebooks can handle it, but what about the PB? Would developing on a Powerbook be akin to offroading in a BMW? Sure, the Beemer is a sleek and beautiful machine, and the chicks dig it, but to get real work done, go for the Ford F-150. True or false? Thanks! Jason

Posted by Jason Boutwell on January 12, 2004 at 04:38 AM MST #

Sorry Chris. That "beater" Dell laptop went to the folks for Xmas. I tell you what, you restart your dead blog and I'll restart mine. Hehe.

Posted by Jason Boutwell on January 12, 2004 at 04:57 AM MST #

G5 laptops are coming... While I understand completely the issue of slowness of G4 laptops, one can only get faster P4 laptops, if one is willing to put up with MUCH heavier laptops, or much more battery hungry laptops. So, there is no perfect desktop replacement. You have to decide what is more important to you. Can you work with a G4 that is slower, lighter, etc, or do you need a P4 that is faster, but much heavier, etc. Anyway, if you can wait, G5 laptops may be here this summer given that the 90nm fab process is now being used by the new rack servers, which means it produces less heat, which is the reason why G5s were not laptop feasible until now.

Posted by KenC on January 12, 2004 at 08:38 AM MST #

Hi! IDEA runs very nice even on my little iBook. And so does Eclipse. In fact Eclipse M6 runs feels more responsive on OS X compared to Linux/GTK. On the other hand I would say that Apple's PowerBooks and iBooks are outdated because of the G4 chip and the infrastructure around it. Unfortunately the G5 isn't ready for notebooks yet though 90nm chips will come next month in the new Xserves ...

Posted by WoEyE on January 12, 2004 at 10:28 AM MST #

Yeah. I don't think I'll be hanging my hat on the G5 laptop seeing the light of day this year. I always known that the G4 is slower than a PC. The question is, is it so painfully slow to develop on that I will eventually go mad from it and curse Apple for the rest of my life. Matt's opinion seems to be a resounding yes. I'd never really considered Powerbooks a feasible alternative for development until the "No Fluff" symposium in November. Powerbooks were quite prevalent among the attendees, as well as many of the speakers.

Posted by Jason on January 12, 2004 at 03:27 PM MST #

I just sent the following email to someone looking into a Powerbook, but concerned after having read your post. --- For the kind of work I do, and for the kind of activities I use the computer for, the processor speed is not the limiting factor. I think this applies more generally than many people realize. In fact, I would say that with today's computers, the amount of *memory* is the most important factor. In addition to the 12" Powerbook, I also own a 2GHZ dual-G5 system -- about the fastest system that Apple makes. Again, for the kind of things I do on the computer, I'm just as happy working on the Powerbook as I am the G5 (from a performance point of view): + Processing email in Mailsmith + Taking notes in DEVONthink + Listening to iTunes + Reading weblogs in NetNewsWire + Managing our servers in iTerm + Producing project management reports in FastTrack Schedule + Writing documents in Word + Writing documents in Excel + Chatting in Snak, or iChat, or Fire Of course, there are some areas where the G5 is *much* faster: + Ripping CDs to MP3 with iTunes + Processing iMovie effects and exporting + Compiling software with GCC + Applying complex filters to images in Photoshop But even for those kinds of activities, which I don't do on a daily basis, I find the Powerbook's performance perfectly acceptable (i.e. for the one time per month that I'm exporting an iMovie, it's not a big problem for me to wait 20 minutes on the Powerbook instead of 12 minutes on the G5.) I can say this, however, the Powerbook wasn't comfortable to use from a performance standpoint until I upgraded from the base 256 MB of memory to 768 MB. With 768 MB, it's very comfortable. So if your budget causes you to decide between, for example, more memory or a superdrive, go for the memory! I bought the 12" Powerbook for its *portability*. I love to be able to work from either my home or the cafe. I love to be able to sit on the couch in the evening browsing weblogs while my wife reads. I love to be able to take the Powerbook to my jiu-jitsu training classes to take notes about what we've done during the session. All of those things I could never do with the G5. In a nutshell, if I had to give up either my Powerbook or the G5, I would give up the G5, in a heartbeat! Regarding G5 laptops, I wouldn't think you would see them (if at all) for another six to twelve months (probably closer to twelve months). Hope this helps,

Posted by Matt Henderson on January 12, 2004 at 03:27 PM MST #

<quote>
The question is, is it so painfully slow to develop on that I will eventually go mad from it and curse Apple for the rest of my life. Matt's opinion seems to be a resounding yes. </quote>

If I did say this, I did not mean to. What I meant to say is that if you're a Windows user, and are used to a fast machine, the PowerBook's performance will be a disappointment. I would NEVER buy a PC Laptop over a PowerBook - the PowerBook has the better hardware hands down. However, if I could get a PowerBook with an Intel chip running Windows XP, I'd choose it over OS X (unless OS X ran on the faster Intel hardware).

Jason, I did not realize that you were a Linux user (over Windows), so using a OS X machine over a Windows machine will likely come naturally to you. The one-button mouse on the PowerBooks suck, but yes, you can plug in an external mouse and get the good ol' right-click functionality. It's just a pain to have to plugin a mouse when you bought the thing for portability. You do get used to the Ctrl+Click thing - in fact, I'm so used to it that I'll try it on Windows laptops before I realize there's a right click button.

The PowerBook is acceptable for Java Development, but it is not as fast as the PC alternatives. I love my PowerBook, and I would probably recommend it a lot more if I didn't switch between a super fast Intel machine and it. When I first test drove the 17" PowerBook, I fell in love. However, I did have to upgrade to 1 GB RAM to run multiple apps (Tomcat, IDEA, Eclipse, MySQL, Mail, NetNewsWire) without it choking.

SEVERE BIAS WARNING: I spend about 75% of my day on the computer and I get super frustrated when I have to wait for anything. I prefer my apps to snap open when I click on them. I get this functionality from Mail and many other apps on OS X. Java apps (IDEA and Eclipse) tend to take a bit longer. They're slow on Windows too. The fact that they open much faster on Windows causes me to harp on OS X (maybe unfairly). I agree that you usually only have to open them once per day, but still - that's just me, I'm a freak like that.

Posted by Matt Raible on January 12, 2004 at 03:54 PM MST #

Sorry Matt. I guess I took the "as a development environment - it sucks" comment as resoundingly opposed. ;-) Anyhow, thanks for all the input. I'll be heading to the Cherry Creek Apple store this evening to give the 15" and 17" PB's a more thorough test drive. If the PB can give me acceptable performance when running the usual "slack off" apps (email, browser, IM), plus the work apps (IDEA and Resin), while also running Ant builds, I'll probably pull the trigger, then hit Crucial.com for the extra memory. My old laptop was a 1GHz P3, and did all that reasonably well enough, but for a pair of house payments, I'm expecting more than just a little improvement from the PB. It doesn't have to be as blazing as a P4, because I want the Mac for more than just developing, but it does need to please in that area too. Thanks again to all who commented.

Posted by Jason on January 12, 2004 at 06:08 PM MST #

Very interesting thread! There are several issues intertwined here. Laptop vs desktop. Windows XP vs OS X [and familiarity with either]. Intel vs PowerPC. Raw speed vs sophistication. And each of us has different criteria for weighing these factors and others as well. Thus, the confusion of ideas & opinions, and I commend Matt Raible for trying to maintain an equitable and balanced view throughout. So here's a couple of my [biased] views. 1. Familiarity aside, OS X is easier to use than XP: navigation is a breeze; fewer mouse-clicks are required to do the same task; the underlying logic of the OS is more coherent; and the "intimate details" of daily use are more intuitive. 2. Raw speed is in large measure perceptual. Side-by-side, Windows machines appear faster because the Windows GUI is faster than OS X [less eye candy, for one reason]. The sluggish OS X GUI bothered me at first, but within a couple of days it became almost totally transparent. I am MUCH more bothered by having to navigate a plethora of dialogs & useless mouse clicks than I am by millisecond-delays in GUI functions. And also, Matt, if you are bothered by a few seconds delay in start-up of your apps, why do you bother to quit them at all? Why not just leave everything up & running 24/7, which OS X was designed to do anyway? 3. Finally, to Jason, I'd say "take a chance" and see if you too become one of the Mac converts. The easy route is to go Microsoft, but is that really where you want to be?

Posted by Rod Rees on January 12, 2004 at 06:15 PM MST #

While I haven't made it to the Apple store yet (looks like a weekend activity), I did come across what I can only describe as the most informative personal Apple site around. http://www.kernelthread.com/mac/. I learned more about Macs there then I could possibly have hoped for. 17 inch Powerbook, come to papa!

Posted by Jason on January 14, 2004 at 04:38 AM MST #

I currently run a 1GHz PowerBook 17. I have a long history with Unix, but have probably spent as much time in Windows over the years. I find that an OSX workstation / Linux server environment is a lot better FOR ME than a Windows workstation / Linux Server scenario. Even with Windows skils, once you totally punt backslash separators and the other differences between Windows and Unix, it becomes more and more difficult to go back to Windows. I'll stand my PB17 up against any Windows LAPTOP. It may not beat it in raw speed and Java GUI apps are slower, but Java server apps keep up fine. The computer itself is unmatched in design. I dropped a few jaws at a meeting a few months ago when I plugged in the hotel DSL and shared the connect to a bunch of PC users via wireless within 5 minutes (no hub required). You might be able to do this in Windows, but none of these guys could do it at all (let alone as effortlessly). I highly recommend VirtualDesktop, an inexpensive virtual desktop manager which works well with Expose and dual monitors. I would say that it takes a bit more work at times to get software running on OSX. Weblogic for instance mostly works, but it takes some work to get Workshop going and I've had unresolved problems with WLI. I haven't yet got WebSphere running (not sure its possible yet), so first make sure your staple tools run on OSX. But I'm not into games and have all the software I need running including MySQL, PostgreSQL, WLS 8.1 platform, IDEA, Eclipse, QuickBooks Pro 6.0, FastTrack, Carrara, OmniGraffle, etc. The only pain I have with it, is when I need to run Windows in RDC, VNC, or VirtalPC.

Posted by Vince Marco on January 23, 2004 at 03:58 AM MST #

From the previous posts in the thread, i feel this might result in several flames, however the truth must be stated. Mac laptops are very slow for software development. Example: when i use the tomcat plugin in Eclipse and choose "Restart Tomcat", with minimal apps installed, i get the following 1. Windows laptop (3.2GHz p4, 1gig ram): startup time - 7140ms 2. Mac Powerbook G4 (1.33 GHz, 1gig ram): startup time - 48439ms running latest versions on both, no optimizations (fairly vanilla setups). 7 seconds vs 48 seconds is pretty drastic. I love many things about the Mac, but when it comes to developing server software, i care deeply about: 1. Editing experience (editor, keyboard) 2. Screen real estate (which is why i went with the 17" pbook) 3. SPEED - of everything: build/deploy/boot/run/debug... To me, all the whiz-bang mac UI features just don't make much of a difference when you're typing java code all day. I use my wintel laptop for development, and the mac for everything else. -jay

Posted by Jason Allen on April 26, 2004 at 06:59 PM MDT #

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