The Verge Web Framework
After reading this post on the Server Side, I'd hate to be the guy who invented Verge. He's getting pounded like a rabbit during mating season!
Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with another web framework. Competition is good. The funny thing is that I've never had a need to migrate away from Struts. I do admit that the IoC (Inversion of Control) in WebWork looks cool, but I don't have a need. After reading most of Rod Johnson's J2EE Design and Development, I do understand IoC (I didn't have a clue before), but I still don't see how I need it. I've never run into a problem with Struts that I couldn't solve. Maybe it helps that I've written my own app to make Struts development simpler.
Even though I do like Struts, and I do find it easy to develop with, I also plan on stuffing my head in a couple of books and learning all about Spring, Tapestry and WebWork. Why? Mainly because I'm a fool and I can't be happy just sitting on the couch and watching TV (which would probably help my blood pressure and make my family happier). I'm a fool because I'd rather learn than relax. Back to the point - why do I want to learn these "big 3?" To be honest, it's primarily because some big names (and folks I'd consider friends) are saying they're cool and they'll make my job easier. If only I wasn't so easily influenced...
What I hate about all of this is that as soon as I decide to integrate Spring into AppFuse, it becomes more complicated. Yes, an XML BeanFactory file is more complicated than Interface i = new InterfaceImpl(), especially for newbies.
Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that I'll end up writing workarounds for issues I encounter in Tapestry and WebWork. I'll even put my money where my mouth is - if your framework doesn't require me to write any workarounds, I'll donate $100 to the project. Heck, if it really is that cool - I'll donate money regardless of workarounds.
The worst part is that there's really no reason to convert my Struts webapp to these newer, cooler frameworks. About the only good reason is so I can say "I know the XXX Framework." I doubt XXX Framework will make anything easier, but it certainly might make my webapp a whole lot cooler. 
Posted by Sam Newman on January 13, 2004 at 01:11 AM MST #
Posted by Jason Carreira on January 13, 2004 at 03:10 AM MST #
Posted by Unknown on January 13, 2004 at 04:46 AM MST #
Posted by Kris Thompson on January 13, 2004 at 04:54 AM MST #
Posted by Kris Thompson on January 13, 2004 at 04:56 AM MST #
Matt, you really ought to make a post about how to efficiently time manage! I don't know how you learn these new technologies, run this great blog, manage appfuse (among other things) and actually make a living doing paid projects!
I missed a pretty important deadline on one project because I was determined to learn and utilize struts awhile back, and then more recently delayed another project because I wanted to learn and utilize hibernate. I'd love to learn some other technologies so that I can have a better idea of which ones would be the best choice for the task at hand but I find it hard to spare the time to do so.
Like you, I'm pretty stuck on struts and don't understand a lot of the negative talk about it. I tend to think a lot of it comes from people that never bothered to fully learn the best way to use it as it does have a bit of a learning curve to understand best practises (at least I found it had a fairly steep learning curve).
As for myself, I'm planning on tackling JSF next...I'm just not sure when and which client gets the honors of a prolonged timeframe for their project completion date :)
Posted by Pat on January 13, 2004 at 06:40 AM MST #
Posted by Gary Blomquist on January 13, 2004 at 02:26 PM MST #
Posted by Matt Raible on January 13, 2004 at 02:34 PM MST #
http://www.nextapp.com/products/echo/
It's "hook" is that it is completely Java server-side programming for developing web applications. Absolutly no HTML, Javascript, DHTML knowledge required. As I understand it, this is also the direction of JSF. If you've ever done some Java Swing development, Echo implements that code.
Honestly, I chose this framework because I just couldn't get my arms around Struts. Trust me, I tried, but I kept getting bogged down with the all the XML wiring. Plus my background was in doing a lot of Java development for shuttling data from one Enterprise sytem to another, no J2EE stuff... However, now after looking at Spring and Hibernate, the XML configuration stuff is really making sense so I may consider switching over to Struts.
There are a few shortcomings, but if you play within the rules a bit, they are non-existent, of course. :)
Here is a great article written by Brad Baker, an individual who developed an exceptionally robust set of Echo components, that discusses why one would consider the Echo framework:
http://echopoint.sourceforge.net/OlderArticles/WhyDoItAllInJava.html
thanks,
Mark
Posted by Unknown on January 13, 2004 at 03:48 PM MST #
one clarrification, Echo is an independent implementation of the Swing Interfaces, it doesn't really use Swing code... obviously.. :) But the programming syntax is almost exactly like coding a Java Swing application
Posted by mnickel on January 13, 2004 at 03:50 PM MST #
Ugh, these kinds of web frameworks make me cringe, and it's part of the reason I'm scared of JSF. Of all the things I know, I know HTML, JavaScript and CSS the best - so why would I want some <em>framework developer</em> writing that for me? I'm not even vaguely interested... ;-)
Posted by Matt Raible on January 13, 2004 at 05:03 PM MST #
Posted by Simon Brown on January 13, 2004 at 06:24 PM MST #
well, that's the thing, my HTML, DHTML, CSS skills are not my best. :) (Obviously I continue to work on developing and learning... LOL need to keep sharp, eh?) And those differences are what make that article I mentioned a good read. :)
I took a look as the example JSF stuff over at O'Reilly's onjava.com site and it does look interesting, but seemingly like all things related to Java and J2EE, the setup of the infrastructure for even a simple "Hello World" application is huge. That's the benefit of AppFuse is that you take care of all that boring setup stuff so you can get to developing the application.
Thus the reason for my choice to use Echo. Don't get me wrong, as with all things there are shortcomings. It's not always rosey. It's just good that there are choices that appeal to everyones differing strengths.
Regarding JSF, however, I believe that is the law of inevitibility, Mr. Anderson. :) I mean it's Sun... JSF stuff is going to make it into the big frameworks, Websphere, BEA, etc... because all the PHB types love to talk about standards and how much money they'll be saving because of the comfy, warm fuzzies of the "standards". Yeah right. I understand the need and place for standards, they are helpful, but the FUD from the marketing campains gets a bit thick.
good discussion... :)
Mark
Posted by mnickel on January 13, 2004 at 06:46 PM MST #